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Qur’an Discussion.

Posted by QB on May 21, 2007

Whig this post is created for the purpose of discussion with you. You are welcome to post whatever you disagree.

Looking forward to open minded discussion. Also keep in mind that I can’t read and understand Arabic message of Qur’an and all my understanding of the message from different translation. Also I don’t have any religious education.

Preaching Crusade.



Maps Source : http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN091MAPS.htm

Maps used for information and educational purposes. No commerical use.


56 Responses to “Qur’an Discussion.”

  1. whig said

    Let me not start by disagreeing, I would rather just say that I want to be free to do so without concern of giving offense. An interfaith dialogue is a conversation between two languages or metaphors for describing what cannot be described in words alone.

    I would rather the conversation than anything else, and the need for people to speak across the divides that exist is urgent. You know that I am not an advocate for war, and I know that you also do not seem to be.

    You do expect more messengers, correct? I believe there are many here among us now.

  2. No more messengers after Prophet Muhammad thats what I believe.

    You must have heard the common misconception of Sunnis that Prophet Jesus will return and they are also waiting for some superman name Mahdi. Sunnis Mahdi will be born. Shiite Mahdi went into hiding some 1200 years back and they believe he will show up some day.

    I don’t believe any of the above fairy tales.

    Whig just be open and don’t worry about any formalities. I will not be offended by any of your posts.

  3. whig said

    Muhammad is rejected for the same reason by those who do not believe in anyone after Jesus, and Jesus is rejected by those who do not believe in anyone after Malachi.

    Some people consider Jesus a fairy tale. I do not know the historiography of Muhammad.

    I believe that there is never an end, and there are always more who come and who speak for the truth of what they learn and understand, and who are given inspiration and guidance and even direct communication from God.

    Do you disagree?

  4. Prophethood ends on Muhammad. It really doesn’t matter if he is rejected by some because not everybody will start believing in one religious faith.

    You will find majority of people of all faiths are infact waiting for special someone from God who will come and make their religion rule all over the world. Hindus, Zoroastrian, Sunnis, Shiites, Christians, Jews.

    According to the message of Qur’an there will be no more Prophet after Muhammad and there will be no further revelation after the completion of Qur’an.

    I disagree with you and all the people who are waiting for the promised last one to come.

  5. whig said

    I do not think there is a last one, either. That was my point, but I understand you do not agree.

    I take scripture as having been inspired by God and written by men or women. I do not consider any scripture to be complete.

    Do not think that I am one of those people who are waiting, I am doing. The reason being that others have already made a decision to bring about the end times and someone must stand for peace, and because I accept my role.

    What would it take for completion of Qur’an, and will not things have to be done to bring that about and end the war of all against all? Regardless of how you or I believe, war must stop.

    I do not believe one religion can win over the others, but I do believe in reconciliation between the faiths.

  6. Reconciliation and peace is only possible when people understand and have knowledge of their own scriptures Qur’an, Torah, Gospel. The problem is that Christianity Judaism and Islam is hijacked by self appointed custodians (Clergy) of religions and spokesmen of God.

    Qur’an has laws of war, punishment for crimes just like Torah and Gospel but these laws can’t be used out of context to justify wars and killings. Qur’an very strictly prohibits wars of aggression. The defensive war is the only war allowed according to Qur’an.

    Present Bush and Osama Bin Laden war is more political than religious.

  7. whig said

    Let us depose the clergy, then.

  8. whig said

    I sense from your writing a feeling of resignation and acceptance of injustice. The time has come to end it, to stop people from killing one another in our names, to end torture and deprivation and enslavement, to recognize that God is universal, by whatever name he is called (or by whatever metaphor one prefers, including secular), that we are all one humanity and part of a social consciousness which unifies us as one being. We are God, ourselves, for God is within each and every one of us and available to us at our need.

  9. This is the message of all religions. No oppression, justice, equality, protecting minorities, tolerance. Respecting each other beliefs. It would be very easy for God to make us all believe in one religion but he left the choice on our free will.

    Still I am waiting for your disagreements related to Qur’an message.

  10. whig said

    Perhaps I have none, if I were to properly understand, but in the words of Sura 47″>Sura 47 (according to the provided translation which I have no ability to evaluate the accuracy of) there is this:

    When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters.

    Could you please comment on how you believe this should be understood. I will reserve any disagreement until your explanation.

  11. What is the verse number?

    Please next time post like 47:xx 47 here is the Chapter or Sura and xx is the verse number. It will be easy for me to find the verse.

  12. whig said


  13. Thank you. Following are the better translation of this verse.
    47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. Yusuf Ali Translation.
    47:4 If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste. Another Translation.
    47:4 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain. Pickthall Translation.
    Whig you read yourself that this verse is related to wars also advising to release the prisoners of war for ransom or grace.

  14. whig said

    I read this verse as saying that war is acceptable under some circumstances.

    I believe war is unacceptable.

  15. whig said

    It may be that my feeling is based only in the fact of our present day capacity to destroy the world in warfare, but could not any war in history have done so if it spread without cease?

    Where is the peacemaking? Only through victory or defeat in battle? There is no end of it, then.

    We need to find a path of mutual non-aggression.

  16. whig said

    It is in any case at odds with the teachings of Jesus, and here we have a contradiction between two prophets, unless I misunderstand your metaphor.

  17. Yes war is justified if the Muslim country is invaded. Iraq and Afghanistan resistence is justfied. But now the war tactics are completely changed that civilians unarmed men women and children get killed their homes destoryed and this is not right according to the laws of war given in Qur’an.

    Unarmed civilians men women and children as well as the cities are protected even during and after war.

  18. There is no contradiction in God’s message. Gospel has Prophet Jesus anger and aggression against the money exchangers in Jerusalam.

    Qur’an also command Muslims to make peace treaties and live in peace. Thats what Taliban offer Bush to show them the proof of Osama Bin Laden involvement in 9/11 attack and they will hand over to Internation court for trial. Bush refueses that offer very arroganly.

    Also Prophet Jesus who delivered his message hiding from Harod and the Roman government with few poor deciples traveling with him from town to town and villages to villages. Project Jesus really did not had the military capabilities to take on Harod or Romans so he avioded confrontation.
    This will answer your last two comments.

  19. whig said

    If I may continue in disagreement, turning the money changers out of the temple was an act of civil disobedience, it was not an act of war. Not a single injury was done to human flesh.

    You claim Jesus was too weak to make war? Satan appeared to him and said he could conquer the world with armies, and surely it would have been done if he had willed that, until he would be stopped because he was proceeding unrighteously. He did not choose that path.

  20. Prophet Jesus did not have the power to fight Herod or Roman empire. Satan offered his assistence which Prophet Jesus refused otherwise he would have gone to the side of devil.

    Injured or no injured but that was the act of violence.

  21. whig said

    Muhammad did not have the power to do what he did until the power was given to him to do it. It is like this for all of us.

    I again demur, you are wrong to call Jesus a war maker.

  22. Keep in mind I as a Muslim can’t insult or degrade Prophet Jesus or any other previous Prophets. God has commanded Muslims to believe in all the previous Prophets without making any distinction among them.

    I never said that Prophet Jesus was war maker just pointed out to what is reported in New Testament. I also don’t want to hurt your religious feelings. What I am saying and will say is based on my understanding of the messages and religions. This is the way to proceed to honest true discussion.

    Lets move on.

  23. whig said

    I’m not sure how to proceed now. You have given me a contradiction, and we cannot reason from contradiction. If you say Jesus was violent for turning over a few tables and saying harsh things, it is not violence against any person, nobody was injured in the least way, and he said that when struck to turn the other cheek. You hold this to justify cutting someone’s neck. I cannot proceed.

  24. whig said

    What I can say on another track, and what I think we can find generally good agreement on, is that the people who are committing war in the name of Jesus are betrayers of his message.

  25. whig said

    Someday I would like to find a peaceful Muslim to help end the war with.

  26. What contradiction? Let me take back that violence sentence which is my understanding of that incident. The problem is you want me to agree on whatever you say without giving my point of view.

    Maybe it is good for you not to talk to me because I have my own very open minded understanding of Judaism Christianity and Islam. You will be better off with Sunnis who believes in second coming of Prophet Jesus. They also believe that Prophet Jesus is still alive. They believe in Saints and Mystics, love their religious scholars and blindly follow what they say.

  27. whig said

    I do not want you to agree, if you do not.

    I do not want to find people to agree with me.

    I want to have a dialog with someone who is willing to help me understand a way that we can peacefully come together to end war.

    If that is not you, or you are uninterested in discussing the matter further, I will certainly take my leave of you.

  28. Where did you get the impression that I am supporting the wars. The wars in the name of religion and God can be stopped when people open up their minds and now to insists on following their own interpretation of religions.

    What do you suggest Iraqis and Afghans do when their country is invaded?

    Bow their heads down and lay down their weapons because they are invaded by the “GOOD Democratic US Government”.

    Peace is only possible when US and Israel change their policies and start negotiating peace instead of labeling them as “terrorists”.

    The violence will continue because common poor people are suffering from US and Israel oppressive policies with no good hope for the present or the future.

  29. Doug I would love to discuss this religion and peace issue with you. I understand clearly your point of view and I am sure you do understand my point of views.

  30. whig said

    Jesus would say that if someone came to steal your oil, you should let him have a double portion.

  31. This comment must be a joke but if you are serious than I am sorry to say you don’t have any knowledge about Prophet Jesus and the New Testament.

    Stealing is sin and very strictly prohibited in Old Testament, New Testament and Qur’an.

  32. whig said

    Matthew 5:39-41:

    But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles.

    Those are Jesus’ words given at his most famous sermon, as reported by Matthew.

  33. whig said

    There was a father who had two sons, and they fought one another. Does the wise father tell the son who is aggrieved to break the neck of the son who is distressing him?

  34. Christians take their war laws from Old Testament. Confirm this with your Priest.

    Christians are very fond of wars. Crusades, Latin America invasion and occupation whey they burn all their very well documented history simply with their favorite sentence “this is the work of Devil”. Viatnam war with religious war against Godless communists. North Korean war had the same reason. Nicaragua Ronald Reagan supported terrorists to oppose communism which killed 30 people. Cubans are suffer because good Christians of US believe that Fidel Castro is Godless communist.

    Bring some logic and intelligence into discussion. I know very well what is written in New Testament. I am curious are you high school student?

  35. whig said

    “Christians take their war laws from Old Testament. Confirm this with your Priest.”


  36. whig said

    You are now merely insulting, so I will depart.

  37. Sorry. Have no intention of insulting you . You have quoted the Mathew passage out of context. This is not related to confrontation between nations. This passage is for the people ordinary common people of the society and neighbors.

    There will be no ideal world where we can eliminate all the violence killing and wars. The violence can be less but there always will be people who fill find reasons to go to war and to kill people whether Christians, Jews or Muslims.

  38. whig said

    I accept your apology. Matthew was indeed speaking of how people should treat other people and not how nations should treat other nations, but there is nothing in the word of Jesus that permits war between nations.

    As for whether we can create a more perfect world, we can do so, though free will requires that people will always have the ability to transgress the laws.

  39. whig said

    In regards to the war between the nations, John of Patmos wrote (Revelations 22:1-2):

    Then the angel showed me the river of life-giving water, sparkling like crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of its street. On either side of the river grew the tree of life that produces fruit twelve times a year, once each month; the leaves of the trees serve as medicine for the nations.

  40. Thank you Whig. I will be very careful when saying something because you are too sensitive person.

    Please read. Preaching Crusade.

    Yes we can bring down the violence hatred and killings but trust me there will never be a world without violence. This can be achived with education which also includes making people understand the essense of all religions. God put us into little test here with different faiths cultures nations and given us the scriptures to live our lives according to His commands which does not preach violence and killings. The scriptures message is kindness, mercy, social and econmic justice, helping the poor, elevating them from proverty, tolerance.

  41. whig said

    I am trying to respond but apparently my comments are being diverted to spam. Perhaps this one will work.

  42. whig said

    Okay, let me break it into pieces and maybe it will work:

    1. That’s a nearly 200 page book you are asking me to read, and without directing me to any part in specific that you think deserves attention. If you think I should read the whole thing from end to end, please summarize why you think it is pertinent.

  43. whig said

    2. I can tell you that the violence will continue while the sacraments of God are prohibited in the lands of his people. A starving man will steal for his meal and to feed his family. Let all who are hungry be fed.

  44. It is very difficult for me to check all the spam with few characterless pornographic animals are posting atleast ten thousand comments per day.

    You can post your message and if you have something more to say just wait for few minutes and post the new comment.

    Look at the number of my spam and you will know how difficult it is for me to sort out all messages.

  45. whig said

    If you remove a man’s hand for a loaf of bread, how then shall his other hand regard your neck? Violence escalates until it is stopped.

  46. whig said

    If thine own hand offend thee, cut it off, but the hand of another belongs not to you.

  47. 1. Just ignore it.

    2. I agree with you. When a hungry person steel bread to feed his family he has commited no crime or no sin. It is the responsibility of the government to provide all its citizens means to earn their living. This is why I so much admire Hugo Chavez who is trying to improve the lives of poor in Venezuela and neighboring countries.

  48. whig said

    In order to improve the condition of the people, we must recall to mind the teachings of mercy and justice, and let God work through us.

  49. whig said

    I am glad that by speaking freely we are having more agreement.

  50. whig said

    Jesus said that he who lived by the sword would die by the sword. Do you know this teaching?

  51. whig said

    What Jesus did for us was to say the path of war was no longer ours, that it would be better to be killed and resurrected than to take a sword.

    Then he accepted this, and he went and died for us.

    This requires faith.

  52. whig said

    He also said that all of us will be resurrected who believe in it. Whether you believe this or not requires faith.

  53. Resurrection is also believed by all Muslims.

  54. Wars are still justified by Christians like Bush and Reverends and Preists.

    I don’t believe Jesus died for the sins of people. This is no disrespect to your faith or intend to be an insult. I will not say anything more about Jesus death because it will offend you and Majority of Sunnis who have similar understand like yours that Jesus is still alive.

  55. whig said

    Bush is an antichrist. You understand?

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